Ivana Chubbuck Acting Coach & Two Unemployed Actors - Episode 106

Max: 0:00

I have the pleasure of talking to acting coach and author of the book 'The Power of the Actor', Ivana Chubbuck. Ivana is the founder and director of the Ivana Chubbuck Studio and creator of the Chubbuck Technique that many actors lean on, including Halle Berry, Charlize Theron, Brad Pitt, Jake Gyllenhaal and so many more over her 35-year career. So join us today while we delve into the acting world according to Ivana, right here on Two Unemployed Actors. .

Ivana: 0:42

I just got to say you got to send me the song so I can sing this all the time in my classes.

Max: 0:49

Because the joke, of course, is, as an emerging actor, you know, sometimes the gap between the projects are longer than the actual projects themselves. You know, and I guess that's the challenge staying work fit in between.

Ivana: 1:00

Can I change the lyrics to 'two employed actors'? I like to see the positive here.

Max: 1:11

I love it. So I think a nice way to delve into your 12-step acting technique, which forms the foundation of your book. I mean there are a number of acting techniques out there, what advice do you have for actors who are really sort of struggling to find what works for them, and how would you introduce your technique to those actors?

Ivana: 1:34

I think people take too much emphasis on making honest and truthful, because just honest and truthful by itself is a couple of things, a little on the boring side, and two it's it's a little self-involved. And so the idea is we want to find the things that will allow us to propel us, to fuel us, into doing acts of daring emotional daring that allows us to try to overcome and win, whatever our objective is in the material. And we want to watch emotional heroes. We want to watch people who take the things that we all go through whether you've had severe realities like I've had with a very violent emotionally and physical mother growing up, and then a lot of relationships that also were not so good either, I must say myself and I think and then just life happening and all these things that we usually self-destruct with and we usually get shamed from and we usually become defeated by, and so I I feel like what we have to do is, in order to get a job, you have to invest the people that are watching, whether the the people that are watching is a casting director or director or producer or an actual audience. It's like you have to invest them if they're not invested, just like life. If you're not invested in having a relationship with that other person, they're not going to want you on their set or on their stage. They're going to want to be with people that they feel they have a relationship with. So so when actors get into this place where they say, well, just got to keep it honest and real, kind of create this honest and real bubble, what happens? You're kind of keeping people out and keeping people from coming in and you're just having an emotional moment for yourself and it becomes kind of very self-centered and and and also when people do that, it's hard to be around them. It's a little kind of off-putting.

Ivana: 3:47

Just in real life, say, a real life person is. We all have people like that in our lives. They always have honest and real and truthful pain and they talk about it non-stop, and so what we want to do is stay away from those people. You could love them a lot, but we don't. We have issues with just it's so depressing to be around people that are so real and truthfully exploring their pain. But people we want to be around are people that want to do something about it, people who say I think I'm going to be proactive, yes, things are bad. Yes, I've hit bottom, but what do I do? How do I find a way to change that? How do I find a way to solve that? Have some resolution, find some kind of learning. Some way I can learn from this situation that happened. And how could I ultimately find catharsis? And so, when being proactive, which is the mark of a dynamic person, most people like to sit in their pain. That's just the reality.

Ivana: 4:57

But what makes somebody popular and charismatic are the people who say, yes, this is happening, whatever it is. Or people are being saying that I can't accomplish this or that, or I got people negating my talent or your abilities, or you're too old, or you're too fat, or you're too skinny, or whatever it is. I tell you can't make it is that I'm going to win in spite of you and because of you, in spite of and because of you, which means that I'm on a journey, that you're creating your audience again, whatever it is, whether it's people who can hire you or people who are an audience to want to support you, like a rooting section, like in sports. And so I always like to use science. Science is a very interesting thing because, basically, we're human animals like a rooting section, like in sports, and so I always like to use science. Science is very interesting thing because basically we're human animals and there's just all science of why we do the things we do. Um, so I've studied, uh, behavioral science, psychology, the science of psychology and cultural anthropology, the the history of culture, which means that we can play things and understand why, why people have the culture that they had.

Ivana: 6:08

When we want to play something from a period piece or from a particular country that we're not from, that allows us to really understand the character profoundly, and then we're watching them try to overcome something that's in their way, whether it's emotionally or physically or both, to overcome. So the science lesson here is that there's proof from archaeologists that there was sport being played by early man before he became upright. Neanderthal man was playing sport and games of contest and so. But that's millions of years old. Theater is 2,000 years old, ancient Greeks, okay, so let's do some math here. Okay, we have millions of years ago, coming from that place, of understanding the win-lose situation, trying to win, of understanding the win-lose situation, trying to win something, and the win-lose reality, or people who want to feel things.

Ivana: 7:13

We want to engage people like a rabid sports fan. You do that, people will feel like they have to have you in their cast. It really is as simple as that. It's like going on a date. You go on a date and that person goes on and on about their exes and how awful they were. Do you want to go on a second date with that person? I call that the callback. You're not going to get a callback because you're depressing them.

Max: 7:46

I love that it's a more constructive mindset. It really is, and I think that's great, because I know I read that Pamela Anderson says you helped her, and I love this quote 'turn messy life into interesting work'. And I think it seems to be a common theme that successful actors say you know their ability to tap into any pain in their life and learn.

Ivana: 8:07

I'm going to do something with it as opposed to sitting in it and so I think I think people all know the reason why I feel like that my technique has, has helped so many people book really great jobs. I mean, it's in the bookings, right, you gotta book, yeah that's it because you can't. You know what I say.

Max: 8:48

You can't take a call back to the bank absolutely, and you look at your bank account as success, especially as an emerging actor, you know. So yeah, absolutely 100 absolutely.

Ivana: 8:57

And the thing is, but if you go in thinking, okay, yes, I feel like I've been rejected a bunch, but you need to, you need to take that information, say, the next one is mine and I'm going to figure out how to do that, how do you do that? You got to study more. You got to figure out, like, what is missing in your work, that all those no's happened because I used to be in casting. I was married to a producer, director, who's won so many awards in his movies and TV, and it's like I've sat in so many casting sessions. I know what books, and what books is people that aren't trying to do what they think is on the page. I call it paper pleasing. So if you do it, oh, they want to see this, this and that that's not what they want to see. They want to see this, this and that that's not what they want to see. They want to see your specialness, which means all your flaws, embrace them, all your neuroses, embrace them, bring them to to go after trying to overcome and win. Whatever the objective is in the script and and and and. Therefore it becomes a very specific, mannered, quirky, interesting role that nobody else is bringing to the table, but you have to do the work and all these people who think that they're just talented so they're going to show up. I did kind of a mush of work. I kind of know what my overall objective is and I'm going to go in with that. It's just they have people who will do the work and they will get the job and they will get the awards.

Ivana: 10:30

You know, talking about Pamela, we worked through the last showgirl three times, went through every beat, every thought. There are many moments where she was not speaking, but we went through those scenes as deeply and as specifically as we did the scenes that had dialogue. And she wanted to do it three times because we always added layers and dimension. And layers and dimension and adding because I don't work from like method is about going back in time what's going on in your life right now? Because you don't know how it's going to end up.

Ivana: 11:04

So you're in the raw, you're gritty and raw and you're using the stuff that you're trying to figure out in today's world. It might be relatable to something that happened to you early on in your life, but that's called psychology. But that's who we are today is accumulation of all the things that have happened. So, whatever's going on in your life right now that you're trying to solve, you use it so say something changes. You're middle of a shoot, you're on episode three and you've successfully been using something that is um been working for you, but something new has happened. Someone just died, or or um, or you, or you just got um a bad health, and you can't pretend that's not the most important thing that's rolling around your head. So I teach you how to use what's most current you know, because it makes you be that person who says what's going to happen next. Yeah, I love that.

Max: 12:00

I love that and I think even in situations like, say, you know you're playing a role in the theatre and you might have certain you know objects that you're using to help at a moment, and what worked for you over the last 30 performances may not be working for you now and you've got to switch it up and be a bit flexible and also, yeah, of course, fuelled by what and informed by what's happening to you and how you're feeling, you know, in your life at that time.

Ivana: 12:29

Yeah, because the most important thing is so people won't know what's going to happen next. Because why you don't know what's going to happen next? Because when actors pre-plan stuff, we know. I know when somebody's pre-planned stuff, because I know exactly what they're going to do next. So you know what I do. I turn the channel. You know what I do. I leave the theater because the thing is, I don't need to predict my time. I have so many platforms to choose from so why not pick?

Ivana: 12:59

yours, when I know what you're going to do. I already know what you're going to do, so no surprises. So you have to put yourself in a place where, with all the work you got to build a very solid house before you can put the right paint and decorations in there that you can keep changing and evolving and changing and evolving your performance. But you got to put, keep putting in things that are going to make you. It's a work in progress. Always, um, I'm going to get a great, we're going to make you. It's a work in progress. Always, I'm going to give you a great. Do you want to hear a great Christopher Walken story? Of course, of course you do, because he's great, he's wonderful, right, please. And it has a longevity of career, which is what we all seek, right, the longevity, and not just that one part. Is that one part? And then that's over. You want longevity, a career.

Ivana: 13:45

So my husband directed him in a movie and, uh, he would. Uh, who do? Had so much writing on his page, the way I teach it in the book how to write on the page. And so that's right there for you. And between and he'd sit in the set to create place, he'd put up his fourth wall. He'd sit in the set to create place. He'd put up his fourth wall, he'd sit in the stuff, create, you know, endow the place. I mean, he did all the work and then, in between every setup, he'd run back to his trailer and change the work that wasn't working off the work that was working. So it was constantly a work in progress Every setup, every setup, changing it and, uh and and, reconfiguring, and then the next scene, the same thing. He just did the work. And this it's a lot of work and it's not for the faint of heart yeah, yeah, that's right and there's.

Max: 14:36

you know there's no shortcuts like anything. The more you you know acting's a lot about the doing as well. I know there's a lot of script analysis in in a technique and I think the more you you practice that, though on your feet, the easier it can be in those situations where something's not working, like in that example or I don't know. For me and as an emerging actor, you know, up and coming, you don't have the opportunity of sitting with a role for a year and rehearsing for it and all that. You might get the script the day before, you know, for your 50-worder and you rock up the next day. And I had a situation where it was just that or it was a lead, but anyway and there was a scene and it was a busy scene, lots of extras, lots going on, but essentially a two-hander. And the director came across after the first take and said you know what? It's just not, it's not working, working, um, what do you think your character should say in this situation? Max, like, have a think about that and we'll get going. We don't have the budget luxury of I'll take 20 minutes and I'll get back to you, like, let's go, um, and I think, knowing I could, I could relax in a way, because I know my character's seen objective I know, know I can trust that it fits with the overall objective.

Max: 15:50

I know that when I'm in that space what I say is going to fit, what my character says is going to fit. But conversely I saw the horror on the other actor's face. She's looking at me going but that's not what. So we have to make up what we have to say, but like how do we know? But we've got to do the same. We're going to say the same thing for the next closeups and I'm like we're just going to have a conversation, it'll be fine. You know, meanwhile it's sound speed action. You know we don't have time and you can trust the process to the point where if something's not working, you can switch it, you can switch gears. Or if someone comes across and says, hey, let's just turn everything upside down and go, you can have that confidence to trust the process and open up and be in that moment.

Ivana: 16:34

That's the whole thing about why directors love working with my people, why I have so many directors and writer-producers that I work with. I get 40% of the people I work with are directors and writers and that I work with I get 40% of the people I work with are directors and writers. And the thing is they love this way of working because it can change an actor so fast, because we have so much work being done and so much substantiation to it from the point of view of the characters on the page, to your personalization.

Max: 17:04

So all that, the process of doing this, so you're, you're good to go, you can say, okay, could you change this so that you're being more sympathetic or empathetic, and it's like yep because I think, I think, I think um or change the scene objective yeah, it's just like you'll just translate what they want into um actor speak yeah, yeah, because I think practically the budgets are getting smaller, right, and and we don't always have the luxury luxury of doing, you know, several takes.

Max: 17:37

I've worked on sets where you know budget's so tight even the series regulars who've been there for years, you know, could say can I try that again? No, moving on, moving on, moving on. You're lucky to get two takes and it's hard enough as it is when you've got a guestie or a 50-word role, to turn up on a set that's been moving like a freight train for decades, you know, and you've just got to catch up and go. It's already hard to be able to pivot and things change and we're moving very fast. It just so helps to jump in and enjoy the process and still enjoy the work, even though there's that extra layer of pressure.

Ivana: 18:13

Well, when I worked Charlize Theron on Devils Advocate I was there with her Warner Brothers paid for me to come out, not because she wanted me to come out, so she asked if they would pay for it because she was my girl and we trusted each other. And so, um, the uh, Al Pacino, um, he wanted to take one scene. I'm just, this is kind of work ethic. You have to have one scene, three pages. You spent they spent three days breaking it down, stopping and started doing it, trying different things. It's like that's what makes people great.

Ivana: 18:46

She is one of the hardest workers I've ever worked with and all my all the people I've created and I can't say I prayed together as a team we've created their startup. Because I don't take that kind of credit, because it's their work ethic, they're taking chances. When I say, well, you want to try this, they They'll go. Yeah, I remember with Jake Gyllenhaal it was like I remember the first time we met I said something. I just I was like I was like a little testing him. Just I gave him something really weird to to try and he said okay, and he did it and it was actually worked really well and I said let's just stay with that. We're going to break down the script of that. But he was willing to take chances and all the greats. Al Pacino once said I just make a lot of choices and I hope they work.

Max: 19:38

I love that. I love that, and you're right about the work ethic. You're going to get more out of it the more you put in. There's no shortcuts. Like I said and I think I love this quote from Shelley's the stakes have to be high, so it was a really interesting place for me to stand on my feet and fall on my face many times. I love that quote and it raises an interesting point too. Once an actor is familiar with a process, say that your technique. How important is it to keep, you know, raising the stakes, your technique.

Ivana: 20:05

How important is it to keep, you know, raising the stakes? It's extremely important because it's it's that's what creates drama. So if we, if we, if we have to say objectives, to get to the other side of a road, so it's a sunny day, no traffic, and I just have to get to the other side whenever I want to, or we have. It's the middle of the night, it's raining down like that sleet kind of icy rain. It's not snow yet, but it's ice and it's making it very, very slippery. There's huge trucks going really fast and it's the middle of the night and across the street your sister's going to die if you don't get there in 10 seconds. So what do you want to watch? You know, I mean, it's kind of a no-brainer to me I want to watch the one that's called Mount Everest, not a sunny day. So when you raise the stakes, the more you raise them, the more we're going to be watching you with anticipation. Isn't that great we want?

Ivana: 21:01

We don't want people to go oh, people from places that don't care about acting technique or anything like that. They don't talk to each other and say, hey, irving, that acting's real good. Look how that person can cry on cue and then say, yeah, she's really good, because that person can just, like they pick up their cues like they're masters. They don't talk like that. They don't talk about technique. They don't care about technique. They don't talk about technique. They don't care about technique. They care if you entertain them, they care if you involve them, they care if you have a message that they believe in and they want to be supported and not feel like they're all alone in that message. If it's a message, movie, movie, you know. So it's like we're there to help our public be able to feel like they're not alone in their stories, that we are there telling their stories on the screen or on stage, for them to be able to feel like you're not alone in this.

Ivana: 21:58

And I'm trying to solve it. Maybe so can you. And it gives people, your audiences, hope. Our job, job, our job, is to give people hope through our choices. Now we could make choices that say, oh, this is not going to work. I mean like as the, as a character, it's not going to work and I'm going to die. Or the person. I'm not going to die and I know I've just really heard because I'm in a pit full of snakes and they're all super poisonous, but I'm going to find a way to dig myself out Even if you do die. The point is that that journey before you die makes us go. We don't want you to die and the person who gives up.

Ivana: 22:37

we go like, yeah, the person will probably die, they don't really care that much.

Max: 22:40

I love that, I think, because I know at the end of the book, where you've, where you provide some advice for actors, there's a couple of pieces of advice that that really resonated with me, and one of them is the take risks, and I think that feeds into that whole. You know, let's raise the stakes, let's keep, as an actor, even in the process, keep, don't be afraid to to take risks, because I know my fear as an actor is that I'll get comfortable and it happens. I feel like I'm a bit comfortable, I've got my process, everything sort of falls into place, step one to step two, and I'm like I have to pull myself out and maybe it's time for another workshop. Um, maybe it's time to to have another look at the process. Um, because that's my fear, that I'll get comfortable at some stage and and I don't want to make these choices from a from that sort of perspective- and also the new book I.

Ivana: 23:30

It's all upgraded to, like you know, self tapes and and the things I know that people want to see. Remember it's 20 years since the last one and so there's a lot of new information. If I know, it's going to help you book a job, so there's a whole new section. It's totally different. I mean, still tell it us, take the risk, because I don't think you got to make bold choices.

Ivana: 23:48

Yeah it's just what you got to do, because it's like vanilla choices is vanilla Beiges color, but it's beige, you know. So we want, we want to have like, we want to take chances and and be able to make people just kind of come alive off of what you're doing and also it invigorates you, the actor. I want to, I, I, what I really like to do is give people so many people have been doing this for a long time they lose their joy of acting because it becomes so political or becomes so like, um, you know, put the camera there and you got to do this and that and what you want to do is be able to enjoy yourself and your joy will be infectious. You know people will go.

Ivana: 24:33

This actor's choice is so enjoying the exploration. You can feel it in the work and the choices that they make that we get excited as part of your journey because we get involved and invested. And so I'm glad that you say we get too comfortable, and I'm not sure comfortable is the right word, because I don't mind being comfortable but making safe choices.

Max: 24:55

Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. And I think the other point where and it's just something I keep checking just to make sure I'm making myself uncomfortable every now and then on purpose I probably could have chosen that word better too, but you know what I mean. And I think the other thing I struggle with at the moment, particularly around when it comes to enjoyment, is the self-tape. It's something that we just have to accept now it's part of the industry. I mean, australia is a lot smaller, but there's a heavy reliance now on self-tapes and I miss that being in the room and you're getting that feedback straight away, and so for me it's. It's the world of self-tapes, where you're becoming a director and everything. I think what, what advice have you got for actors who really have to push themselves a little bit extra to get what they want out of a self-tape environment?

Ivana: 25:42

well, you just have to think in terms of, um, whoever you're reading with yeah, it's a scene you're doing and like, really put it out there. Um, there's, and the new book is a full-on chemistry exercise was an old book that was kind of dealt with in a very short, quick way. Now it's got its own chapter creating chemistry with the person that you're reading with. Even though we never see that face, we'll feel the energy of chemistry and we automatically go. He's charismatic from that chemistry. Um, bringing in the need in terms of the substitution to the person that you're reading with. Um, having the inner monologue around the person for the substitution using with the person that you're reading with, even though we never see that person. It's just a voice we barely hear.

Ivana: 26:31

If you do to think of it as a regular scene, like you would when you went to an audition, is they're picking up on the energy of what they want to ultimately see on screen you. So if you think of it as a, as an actual performing, right now is not an audition and it's another opportunity to just like, play my craft, then people get that. That, that with that human being that's in actually in front of you for them to watch you go. This person is really enjoying this process and so I just saw tape. Um, yesterday, uh, the person got, he showed me the tape. We worked on the audition and then he, he showed me the tape and then he got a call, uh, or an email yesterday saying he booked a job.

Ivana: 27:27

It's a lead, it's a two-hander, it's a lead and really great script and it's just. But if you look at what we did and how we broke it down, was to find, even though he plays a killer, it's the joy that he doesn't see it as killing people, as hurting them because he hates them. He sees him killing, killing them as because I always try to find the spin, the positives of a negative is that he's taking people who are unhappy and pulling him out of their misery. For him it's euthanasia, so it would seem to be like a. It was just a very interesting read because of that, and so it's coming up with like interesting ways to make it be a more positive journey to things that we automatically judge as being bad people I love that I think they're being bad yeah, no, and exactly.

Max: 28:16

I love that. I think, and I think also it's a great point to to not get caught up in the process of oh my god, I've got to put a self-tape down. It's, it's. No, I've got to get into this scene like I normally would and I'm simply filming the scene.

Max: 28:29

It's less about I've got to get this self-tape down and getting into that mindset. Sometimes, when you like to overanalyze or you know, you can end up in a situation where you're doing you know you've got five hours of editing to get one scene down to try and book the job.

Ivana: 28:51

Make choices based on like. Again, I keep bringing up the book, but there's a whole chapter on what's called energy kills and being killed, taking the victim out of being a victim and how you get hurt or killed and making it your choice. So that doesn't seem like it's something that, because we don't want to watch a victim's journey, so that doesn't seem like it's something that, because we don't want to watch a victim's journey, we want someone who's might be victimized by the circumstances, but they're going to find a way to take the victim out of being a victim. And so how do we do that? There's ways to spin why you need to be killed and energy wise or why you need to kill, but killing out that bad energy that needs to get killed. So it's a. There's a chapter called energy kills, um and uh, and it's just like everything is based on trying to take judgment out of the equation, because if you judge your character, it's going to get judged, and nobody likes a judger.

Ivana: 29:53

Think about this Anytime you judge and you watch two people one person's judging the other Do we judge alongside the judger? No, we hate the judger for judging that person. We automatically take the side of the person that person's judging. So when you judge a character, you're doing the same thing. You're taking something that somebody lovingly wrote, something that someone's going to lovingly direct, and you're saying, well, this person's a bad person. Well, that's not going to create them. The wonderful thing about the movie that's called Natural Born Killers. They were having fun, they were creating relationship out of it, but they weren't killing people.

Max: 30:40

It was just their version of what makes a happy relationship is different to ours. But yeah, exactly.

Ivana: 30:45

Yeah, exactly. But just because Raging Bull beats her up all the time and they have great sex doesn't mean that she doesn't like it that way. I mean she promotes it. That's why she won an Oscar. That's why he won an Oscar. Because the thing is, they both made it that. That's just how they do foreplay. They like the violent part. It helps them with their sex part. It makes great sex for someone who's a world champion fighter and the wife of a person who would be attracted to someone who likes to do physical damage to people in the ring. So it just made a match-up, made it happen, right, and so people. But you can judge. Oh, she's being abused. It's like well, some people like to be abused because it's what makes whatever their relationship work, because it's what they both like Without judgment. You constantly have to take the judgment out of things because once you put the judgment in, you just lost the role Guaranteed 100%.

Max: 31:48

You're heading back into safe territory.

Ivana: 31:51

It's not safe territory. It's territory that's making people say why would I want to watch this movie? Because it's by ugly people. It's territory that's making people say why would I want to watch this movie? Because it's by ugly people yeah, yeah, got it.

Max: 32:00

I think the one thing, that another thing that resonates with me from your work and your book is the importance of active listening, because you can see those moments when an actor is simply waiting for the other actor to stop talking so they can say their lines. I think it's that's something that I had to work on a lot. At the start. Um went through a workshop in australia with uh in the in your technique, with anthony brandon wong, who was fantastic at creating this great space for us to really get into it and push out of your comfort zone, because you know, I'm coming back to acting after 20 years of corporate life, 20 years of hiding your emotions and all the rest of it, and trying to get into this space where I can really practice under pressure. Your technique and active listening was a part that I was struggling with and it scared me because, yeah, you can absolutely see those moments when an actor is just waiting to get their line out.

Ivana: 33:02

You lost the job there again. Because when people tell me they show me their tapes the directors or the producers that I work with and they'll show me the tapes of the finalists they're interested in and they always point out look at what that person's doing, look at the behavior or look at the way the person's listening. That's why they oftentimes give you these big monologues, not for you but for the other character. They want to see how you listen, because rarely does anybody ever say I love the way that person said a line. So an active listening because you can listen, but it doesn't. It's a little passive, but I call it active listening because the process of that, the formula in that, is first you take in the information from your inner work, the stuff that you've created as inner work, so what you're really hearing, and then how you feel about it and then what you want to do about it, and that makes it active and in terms of, in terms of your, your coaching, how, how different is your approach to coaching?

Max: 34:00

say, you know an a-list talent who's probably doesn't have to audition anymore, you know just booking work compared to an emerging actor in one of your workshops. Do you change how you communicate? Is it all? Everyone's at the same level, same process, same?

Ivana: 34:16

Well, I just think it's a good. I've been doing this technique for about 30, some years, 35 years, and I just find that it. Why would you change it up for an A-list actor? I mean, it's like you got to think of everybody as either they are an A-list actor or they're the future A-list actor, and that's in my head. I don't change anything. I don't have that kind of fan thing. What I have is it's funny, because when I've gone on red carpets with people, it's like when everybody's screaming their name, no, that's just Halle Berry, that's my friend, halle Berry, you know.

Ivana: 34:58

She knows my stuff, I know her stuff and it's like she's just Halle, you know, and so it's just to me. You've got to take out the hierarchy. It's been forced upon us for centuries and centuries that if you come from royal blood you're better than someone who's a peasant, and so we upgrade that to the same kind of thing. It's like A-list actors versus starving actors working at a restaurant. To get by living with eight other people, you know, like everybody has. I mean this story isvis film on one of yours, travis, and used to uh, because he didn't have enough money, they have a place. He used to sneak in at night to the studio, sleep on the, the prop furniture, wash himself up in the in the studio bathroom and then try to sneak out before it was found by the morning teacher, and he got caught once. But we're all friends, we're a community. My technique also creates a community. So now I have schools all over the world, I have a community that's international and I love it. I have friends and we communicate in ways that we feel safe in telling each other anything and everything, and so that, I think, is a great story, because now he can afford whatever he wants to afford, right, Whatever he chooses to, but his thing was always being great and oftentimes he just wanted to be proud of his work.

Ivana: 36:31

He's another person who does everything three times, sometimes to an annoyance. I'm joking. He says you know how I work and I go online. And I said, no, we have to do it a third time, and so this is an episode. So he goes episode to episode and that means that it's like a lot of work. That means he doesn't have a life. He basically goes to work and works with me. He goes to work and works with me. He goes to work and works with me, and so, but that's, you know, and it's all about. He's turned down because he's a good looking guy. He turns down those kinds of roles because they're not interesting to him. He wants to be proud of his work. He wants to feel like he's doing something or each role that he's doing something different and something that he can explore a whole, whole other reality with, and not just make the money. He doesn't care about the money.

Max: 37:18

That's a great way to keep challenging yourself as an artist. I think that's a great approach Also with your classes. How often do you get directors and writers sitting in, whether they're auditing or an active part of All?

Ivana: 37:34

All the time, all the time, all the time.

Max: 37:36

Right.

Ivana: 37:36

All the time, in fact somebody. Just they workshop the material that they write. Because I think people need to be more proactive in their careers, to write stuff like Baby Reindeer, you know, because then they become a huge star of something he wrote and it's his life and that kind of stuff. Anyway, someone wrote something that was it's his life and that kind of stuff. Anyway, someone wrote, um, something that was part of his life. It's got a fictionalized version but it's pretty autobiographical. Someone in class happened to be there who happened to be a producer, and he said I love what I'm seeing and I'd like to produce it, you know. So it's like that's happening as we speak. I'm not talking like this is not urban legend, this is going on as we speak. I'm not talking like this is not urban legend. This is going on as we speak.

Ivana: 38:16

Fantastic you know, and this happens all the time, because we're all in it together. We're an actor, director and writer. We're telling the same story. People forget that. So if a director comes up to you and he says I want you to do this, it's because his vision isn't what you're doing. So it's up to you to also have the conversation. What is your vision? What is it that you see about this character? And then it may need a conversation to say your point Again. I worked with Hallie on Monster's Ball. We had Mark Forster and for seven hours we went through scene by scene, the three of us on my couch in my living room just talking about the stuff that we thought needed to be changed, his reasons why he wanted to keep it or how he wanted to change it or omit it or whatever. It was a real ensemble kind of work process. So it became just like an amazing thing for us to do this off of just everybody wanting just to make the best product, no egos.

Max: 39:20

Yeah, that's fantastic. There's no passengers, everyone's willing to do the work. That's fantastic. It's how you get better work, I mean. I think it's interesting too. As a writer, there'd be no better place to see your work come to life than in that workshop environment, when actors aren't afraid to really push themselves, and sometimes it could be perhaps the first time they're hearing their work come to life with actors.

Ivana: 39:46

I script doctors, so I give them notes. I say there's a hole there. There's a big-ass hole there, so you need to fill it. This is three suggestions on how you can fill that hole. Or do you think that you should make this person more this or less that, or make that person maybe here's an idea let's give them an addiction that they try to overcome as well, or whatever. It's just we play, we're playing, so it's not just they're seeing their work. What they're doing is doing exactly what actors are doing. They're also learning and growing and and experimenting you need to get some credits as screenwriter.

Ivana: 40:21

I think that's I, I, I literally have said don't give me any credit for this at all, because I want to feel like I. I am the um, your, your dirty little secret, you know I'm fine with that.

Ivana: 40:41

The other way I quit acting is because I didn't. I want to be the, the support system, the nurturing system, and just, I guess the base is I don't really care about it. It makes me uncomfortable to be the star and like that person Everybody's tabloiding, celebrating in that kind of weird way. I want to be a nurturing resource that helps them come up with new, really cool ideas. And the reason why is because I never had that growing up I didn't have a nurturing resource. Reason why is because I never had that growing up I didn't have a nurturing resource.

Ivana: 41:17

I had a mentally ill mother who was a hoarder and who was like really clinically insane and should have been on meds and or in a place. But if somebody that she wasn't properly diagnosed, weird stuff happened all the time and my father was off changing the world helping other people, so he was never home. He was a civil rights attorney, he was a labor lawyer. He was like the first Black members of the executive board of the ACLU. He's that kind of guy and so I feel like I wanted to be him. I wanted to be him that helps people but not get necessarily credit for it. But I had a funeral. It was like the people there just said your father changed my life, your father changed my life. And then I have what people tell me while I'm still alive, because I won't know what they're saying when I'm dead, like it's why, but I don't know what's going to happen.

Max: 42:15

You're still trying to influence what they say now, yes, unknown territory.

Ivana: 42:18

But the thing is is that when they tell me you've changed my life, you made me feel like, um, I have a chance. You made me feel empowered by my pain, my shame is gone, all this stuff, and that makes me feel so good and I feel like I'm carrying out my father's legacy.

Max: 42:34

That's fantastic, I mean, that's so really your fuel, your motivation over the years, and probably why then you found this path is because it comes from a place where you really want to give people what you didn't have as much of growing up. I mean, look and over your career too. I'm sure you've seen so many actors and what advice would you have for, say, an emerging actor trying to navigate the business of acting today?

Ivana: 43:08

I think what you have to do is people have got to jump in head first with getting their pictures done and trying to get an agent and stuff like that. But if you screw up, if you burn bridges, you burn them, and because there's so many people that want to do this that if you burn a bridge, it's unlikely you're going to get seen again. So the smartest thing to do to navigate this business is getting great first. It's like a doctor setting up shop to take care of you when he's only gone to med school and he didn't do any residency or anything that he actually specifically applied it. So we're getting like some guy who goes to a book. You know so I wouldn't want that person, I just it would be. You're never going to make money doing that or have success doing that. So you got to do it the right way study, study, study.

Ivana: 44:04

Um, my classes are ones that people are working actors, so everybody networks and helps each other out. You know, here's my agent, or, or this is a part I just got. I mean, travis does this all the time. Who do you got that's like this, this and this, because I want to use your people and my stuff that I'm doing and most of the people in my classes are like that. So the issue is study first, get. So you can't burn a bridge. You will absolutely burn bridges, you know so. If you want to be somebody that's going to really be successful, you first got to do it. All the greats that I know of, and all the greats before, are the ones that have you know people before my time or not, part of my world. They've all studied, studied, studied and they continue to study, and they all have coaches and, whether you know it or not, they've all studied, studied, studied and they continue to study. And they all have coaches and, whether you know it or not, they generally do.

Max: 45:00

I think that's great advice and that's been my experience too, and I know I keep saying the Australian industry is a bit smaller, but I think you know it's a small world in our community globally. And I you know you can't afford to burn any bridges, especially when you're starting out, and so you know you can't afford to burn any bridges, especially when you're starting out, and so you know that level of professionalism at all times. I've interviewed a casting director award-winning casting director on the podcast who said you know, I've seen an actor come in for a television commercial and I've just been blown away and gone. Look, not right for this particular project, but this person's going places. I'm going to remember this. This person I'm, although I might be putting them forward to the client and sure enough, you know, a few months later a role comes up for a feature and, uh, it's like I know who would be perfect for this. You just can't afford to ignore any opportunity, no matter how big or small you might perceive it.

Ivana: 45:53

Um, you've got to be professional and you only make one first impression and it's also like if they, if they really like you, you may not get the part, but, like this person said, it's like they'll remember you because there aren't that many people that blow you away. Right, but you can't blow anybody away by just showing up and memorizing the lines or even having a little bit of training and then expecting to that. That's going to hold water. It's like going, it's like expecting to get to the olympics but only doing a couple of you know classes in olympic type training. It's like you gotta work your ass off and I and I just can't say enough it like the studying process. One of the things that you missed about Charlie Stair's quote is that she said she learned a lot when she fell on her face. And then she said and I fell on my face a lot. Sometimes she would say I'd like to do this scene. I said you know you're not really quite right for this, but what the heck, you know, let's see what you do with that. And of course she wasn't right for the part and I was probably right in her, probably shouldn't have done it. But the point is it doesn't hurt to take chances. I'm being funny when I said that, because the idea is, who knows, maybe there's something about her that may be right for that role. Um, it was a role that was a lot of years older than her and someone who was the second wife I mean the first wife, not the second wife and she was at the time 20 years old. So just, I don't know the history of her life that she could like apply to that. But she got for lack of trying. But some of the things that she did in class was so nervy and ballsy and she was just I, just I said everybody always waited to what she was going to do and this is the beginning of her career because she just was just a natural risk taker.

Ivana: 47:50

I remember having a conversation with her. I said she was denying a bunch of stuff that she said. I said you know, you have to put what you just told me about your childhood stuff, you have to have some feelings about that. So now I'm over it, I'm over it and I said, well, ok, you can play that game and nobody will ever know who you are, or you just like tell me, let's just look into this and see what feelings you have about it and how that manifests itself in your present day life. And she said, and I said, you can be famous real fast. Okay, your choice, because you have to have the balls and the bravery and bravery is sexy to actually just really expose through your work the deepest and darkest. And so she said, okay, let's do it. So it was like that quick, you know, and so we did, and well, the rest is history, you know she's a risk taker.

Max: 48:44

Risk taker, I love it. I think if we take one thing away, it's it's, it's the risk taker. Don't, don't, don't forget that. I think, look, it's fascinating to just to hear your, just when you start drawing from these experiences and conversations with actors who are so successful because they do the work, because they take the risks. I think you know it's a testament to you and your skills and experience. I know you don't like to step into the limelight, but I think that's fantastic to be able to be in a position where you are to say you're wanting to actually successfully nurture all this talent and to have all of these amazing experiences and conversations and successful actors to draw from as you help others in the craft. I think that's a testament to your skills and experience.

Ivana: 49:33

And I want people to know that we're a special breed, you know, and it's like, and then I know that you lost time being in the corporate world. But time is bent, you know, it's all like I said before, it's like time when I'm teaching goes fast, time when I'm acting goes slow, and it's because I love teaching, not so much that actually being the actor, but the thing is that 20 years has been truncated, and make up for it.

Max: 50:11

Yeah, I love it. Thank you so much, Ivana Chubbuck, for a great conversation, and your updated edition of the Power of the Actor will be released. I think it's the 29th of April. It should be required reading for any actor.

Ivana: 50:24

Also an audio and I did the audio book.

Max: 50:26

Oh, did you? Oh, so you sat in the room and recorded the whole book.

Ivana: 50:31

Oh, I wrote it, I should talk about it. I utilized the whole book. Oh, I wrote it, I should talk about it. I utilized the 12 steps and some of the formula stuff. I actually talked you through it so you can actually put your earphones on. Just listen to that right before a tape. If you have to play stoned or whatever, I actually walk you, I actually talk you through it, so you're actually going through the exercise.

Ivana: 50:49

Oh so it's actually very, um, practical yeah, to me a double's a double thing, and so you get the book and the audio which you listen differently than you read. You take things in differently, so you'll be more exponential connection to your skill level when we exponentially grow from using both.

Max: 51:13

We can all have you in our ears, in our heads, on set in the moment. Thank you very much, ivana, much appreciated.

Ivana: 51:22

Absolutely, and thank you for some really good questions and good luck with your career. Make positive choices, take risks and continue to just like, make choices based on things that you're going through in today's world. So it's raw and pretty to one employed actor.