Screen Producers Australia & Two Unemployed Actors - Episode 104

Screen Producers Australia CEO Matthew Deaner

& Two Unemployed Actors Episode 104

00:00:00:00

MAX

Hi, I'm Max Belmonte and this is Two Unemployed Actors The podcast. In this episode, I'll be talking to Matthew Deaner, who is the CEO of Screen Producers Australia. As the more avid listeners will know already, I have three television projects I'm developing because sometimes as an actor you have to create your own opportunities.

So this podcast episode is a great way to get an understanding of what it's like to operate at the moment as both an emerging producer but also as an established production company. We're going to be talking about some of the big issues and opportunities for the industry and more right here on Two Unemployed.

00:00:50:00

MAX

Welcome, Matthew.

MATTHEW

Thanks, Max.

MAX

Why don't I let you describe what it is that Screen Producers Australia does.

MATTHEW

So, it's an industry association, so that starts with an idea of collective’ism coming together or organizations coming together because the sum of the parts are greater than individually. And it's a business association as a starting point. So the common thread amongst everyone that's in the membership is that they see themselves as producers or contributing to produce production as businesses. Rather than individuals. So that means is a set of obligations. Right. Ownership pieces, IP management and employment skills that you've got to have in the job that we help people to, I guess, navigate and find easy pathways for the organizations. So the three remits, it does a lot of work in industrial framework so that we will get by.

To get the gig. And you need an easy way for people to come together with new employment, either as Writers or Actors, Directors. So we collectively bargain, if you like, the terms and conditions that make it a bit easier to plug in play for all the cast and crew and in different parts of the sector. And we also then represent the sector and the members more specifically to governments, about what's relevant to for them and how they can help the sector.

And then the third thing we do is collectively, we glue everyone together because producers have to get a big group of people together from the commissioning side and the creative side and then the output side. So we need to find pathways to bring them all together. And we do that in a big way at the Gold Coast, at an event called Screen Forever, which you have been to.

MAX

Twice and survived. No it's great, really great. And particularly from the perspective of an emerging producer, it's kind of like, what's the you know, I've got to read the room pretty quick and work out, you know, what's the temperature in the industry? What's going on, and who do I need to talk to? What do I need to say? And it's a great environment for someone to quickly learn.

00:03:11:20

MATTHEW

Yeah, we might do a deep dive into that. Apart from the physical conference, we do a lot of different online courses and events and little like gatherings and other things. Yeah. Yeah, but you're right. But if you look through the prism of an emerging, producer, anyone really who is  starting in the sector. You sort of want to grasp the full sector without being submerge by it. We hope. There's about a thousand people that come to the conference. So it's not like an international market which can be sort of 10,000 people and a bit overwhelming. But it's also not like a very small sort of grouping of people where maybe you can't quite see the bit beyond the horizon a little bit there about what's going on? Yeah, we try to provide a good mid-size. What's the three bears in the porridge?

MAX

Just right the middle. Just perfect.

MATTHEW

And for that reason that it's meant to be friendly and engaging and interesting. But I think, yeah, it's about building networks.

MAX

And I think again, for an emerging producer perspective, just because I'm selfish and that's me, I think, you know, you do offer a lot of resources, of resources for not just the established production companies and those with runs on the board and credits to the name.

It's people like me who are still fighting for their first TV show credit. And I think Business Essentials was a good course to really sort of drop in and get a sense check from industry professionals how what the lay of the land is and how you can structure yourself.

MATTHEW

Yeah. And that's a, that's a sort of a two day course?

MAX

Yep.

MATTHEW

Yeah. We sort of feel like we've with producers overall and, and the community you may to welcome and encourage people into the space because I think a lot of people know what an actor is they know what a director is but producing is one of those where, where does it stop and start. It's,

MAX

It's like a dark art

MATTHEW

Because in some ways it's the most… well  everything's critical. But if you don't have production people, producers of what's going on, you don't have a show at all. Yeah, you can sort of, you know, get by with fudging some of the other stuff sometimes. But, you know, the, if you haven't got a whole framework around it, going to a productions as they say, you know, the, the, the resource for people coming new to the sector or who've been in the industry but in sometimes we call them slashies.

00:05:38:07

MAX

Yeah, absolutely.

MATTHEW

Who's been in one area of the sector you know more I think a lot of people who are creatives want more understanding and control over their work now so that they're in control of where they can be sort of more in control of what they would like to have as a career. So there's more and more people with our membership that are writer producers or acting producers or directing producers who want to produce maybe with other people on their own, but start with also wanting to be at the helm of the creative.

Those courses are a way of giving people that, language and maybe understanding so that when they go into a room, they're not completely blindsided on whats going on.

MAX

Yeah, no, exactly. It's certainly less intimidating that way. The other course I remember distinctly was that the prep for your first screen forever so that you can, you know, how to approach it, when to start booking meetings, how to go about it.

Like the whole… It just makes it even more, well less intimidating. Or in my cases not so much the intimidation as the imposter syndrome which is ever present, but but just practically, how do I prepare to get the most out of this visit as a first timer.

MATTHEW

 The one thing I'd say about the sector, And it's not everyone, but I'd say the reason… a lot of people in the sector, a lot of people in the membership, most of the organizational structure is about people being generous, participating in a generous sort of spirit. Because they want to collaborate and work with people. And that same spirit is there for giving people a hand up into the sector. So as long as you know you have a reasonable amount of EQ and you, you know you're responsible of your own behaviours and engagements with people, I think it's really important to always think of every contact with someone, you know, an important piece and, a sort of a spider web analogy of the one relationship you think, well, they're just an EA maybe or something and then all of a sudden you discover they're in AP or Yeah, you. As a matter of fact, yeah. Someone who was supposedly in my mind higher up the hierarchy. No, you know, having all of those relationships. Yeah. Is important. And people who've been in the sector a long time recognize also that new people coming in the sector got great ideas.

They might want to work with them. They would help encourage you know, say I hope that, you've had that experience with some of the relationships and the pathways people can provide for you.

MAX

Absolutely. I think and both from dealing with commissioners directly, but also through production companies as well, knowing that until I get my first credit, I might have to rely a lot on an existing production company who has delivered to a commissioner before in order to to get the project into development, let alone, you know, made. But it's been constructive.

00:08:26:22

MATTHEW

And just to touch on that point and it can be a source of frustration from people from the industry. Right. So you know they it it's not that it isn't rocket science, but it's also very relationship based. So and that's because I always think of the risks associated in different parts of the industry in spending what can be a large amount of money. Usually not their own decision making money. They could be responsible for a lot of people, whether thats government or commissioners and so thier natural starting point is going to be risk averse, and cautious about taking on new concepts, new people, new businesses. So you have to really prove yourself over a longer haul and there's a bit of a delayed gratification you’ve got to get to. You’ve got to keep turning up and turning up.

 And that you're right the pathways with other people who've got relationships can build those own relationships. But you know, I do think persistence is the is the key and I think as long as you have the key building blocks of being a pretty decent person, having some decent ideas and consistency will get you through the door eventually will get something made, it does happen. It always happens.

MAX

So tenacity through a professional lens. I like it. It's good. It make sense. I feel like thats how how I'm walking in the industry

MATTHEW

How you’re surviving,

MAX

So… soon to be running, hopefully.

MATTHEW

I think the difficulty for people of course, is the tenacity alone doesn't necessarily pay the bills. So you've got to have a strategy as someone early in the sector emerging to have a way of bankrolling yourself, you know, being patient. And that's hard for the people, you know. And we’re not now as a society used to delayed gratification. And we’re used to dopamine fixed on our phones every 30 seconds so is a sort of a challenge with this industry where you've got to find ways to, I think, have an income stream that doesn’t dominate your capacity to keep building your profile, your skills in the sector and products but that and once you, once you sort of got that balance right, you should keep going and being in the situation to meet as many people as possible is the other key. You know, you need to be in the room with people as much as we can rely and do follow ups and zooms and phone calls and everything. But being in the room is nothing like a human connection.

MAX

Yeah, exactly.

MATTHEW

So I was a big advocate for anyone being mobile as I mean you don’t have to live in a big city, there’s advantages for doing that in terms of contact, but can also be a disadvantage as well because It's hard to get together Making regular visits or trying to connect with people and events the industry has is pretty important.

MAX

So we touched on a few points already, but I'd like to hear your perspective. You know, what are the issues right now?

MATTHEW

Oh my gosh where do we start.

MAX

Pulls out the shopping list

MATTHEW

And there is a shopping list. And it's also a bit overwhelming sometimes when you go in to speak to a minister or someone that is able to influence the sector, positively, it's always a challenge trying to focus a couple of things rather than come up with 100 things.

MAX

I guess I could also say what are the opportunities right now thats probably a better, more constructive way to approach it.

MATTHEW

Yeah exactly and there are opportunities and there's things we want to fix and it also… the benefits of that would depend a little bit on the immediacy of some of those things. Depends on what sort of genre you're in, what you know, stage of career you’re in, you know, those sort of things. But the first and foremost piece we've been trying to get fixed for a while is having a framework for the streaming services to deliver ongoing support to the sector.

So support is the wrong way to described it actually. Streamers do do an ongoing amount of investment in the sector which is not really supported it's investment in their own businesses, but it supporting as a consequence people who have careers in the industry plus also the work that's going on. So I think about it in multiple ways. And as a consequence you're also getting to the Australian public culture.

But that piece, the reason we want a framework of sorts is that as we've seen currently international streaming businesses have pulled right back from streaming. Now it's not maybe there's an argument that they're doing that because they havent had the press go button pressed by the government for a regulation framework. But it's also that global decision making easily can turn a tap on or off for a reasonably small territory like Australia. If for example as this has happened, a global business, such as Disney, need to pull back on investments because their looking to reshape their cost base in different ways. So the consequence of an industry that's very dependent on very large global international businesses is that we can just be flying about like a bit of flotsam in the ocean by corporate board decision making.

00:13:36:07

MAX

And you can feel like the rounding error at times because I think, because I think, I think you're touching on globally you know the streaming wars is as people call it and where where and by that, what do we mean by that. Like my perception of that, it would be overinvesting in content in order to

MATTHEW

Beat each other up.

MAX

Get your market share. Yeah. So they are over investing to to outgrow everyone else because when it settles maybe there's only going to be a few players left. So everyone's trying to fight for market share, now that sort of pulled back as they realize that they actually do probably need to make a profit. Yeah. And so that sort of pulled them back globally even before we get to, you know, a quota for Australian content.

00:14:12:24

MATTHEW

Yeah, exactly. There's been a market share sort of competition piece and that's come at its own consequence. I mean disruption from tech in our own industry as for other industries, the Internet is a broader sort of thinking piece, you know, disrupting lots of things, lots of marketplaces and businesses are adjusting, but maybe without a sustainability to that global level. So, you know, that's being called in a bit by Wall Street and investment by other people depending on what debt is otherwise owed on businesses. So I think it's fair to say that Netflix is in a profit position, even if it has a lot of debt, it has a profit position as an ongoing business so it’s a profitability piece based on its global size. Others maybe depending on what you read and how, in different frames but you know, as you say, the issue is not that Australia doesn't give a good return to those businesses. It absolutely does. in that it is for a relative the challenge for Australia has always been that as a predominantly English language Western country, we will happily as an audience, receive and consume American and English content growing up with a reasonably strong diet of it.

So in order to have some layer of local content in people's diets, you've really got to push that to happen because the market forces of supply to this territory are very cheap. So you can supply to this territory for nothing and therefore all the money that's generated from the content that's already made in other countries is profit for them. The reason I explain all of that is that it's not a profit problem for people to be making content in Australia.

It's more that they'd like to maximize their profits in this territory if they have to contribute some investments to local content in a more robust way, they're still going to be in great profit but I think as a global position they’re trying to maximize this market as a profit base, even because maybe in other territories they're not making as much.

MAX

And I feel like it's proven in, in when we look at the free to air model and how there's been minimums there for some times. So it's not like it's a guess. You know, we've seen it happen and we've seen what having those minimums can do even when they're removed or, you know, when it comes to children's TV.

MATTHEW

The evidence is there that without those major moments you don’t get continuing investment in the genres. And I think in the free market case, you've got a very clear lining up now that these are businesses that only really want to produce, and you know, can sort of somewhat understandably for their own business case, they want to only produce sport, or reality TV, or news. So it's something that's immediate and requiring people to be on those businesses day in, day out, and that's because of the advertising model.

MAX

Live for advertisers at that moment.

MATTHEW

Yeah. It's the same for, I call it, everything else is competition driven which enrourages you to be at the table or the screen at the moment things are happening. So you want to understand you've been following the MAFS the X Factor or one of the competition based shows, you really want to be able to see what happens. And it’s the same for sport.

MAX

And those reality shows, I mean some of them are so profitable for the networks, it's not a tap that they want to turn off, you know. So we keep seeing more and more.

00:17:40:13

MATTHEW

So we keep seeing more and more. Yeah. Look, I think that, I mean those shows are not they have a range of budgets on those shows, but some of them are easily expensive. Yeah, some cost costs and judges and other people and, you know, reasonably big set up. But you can integrate and stimulate a lot of marketing revenue and advertising revenue through those outlets.

And in different forms. And so therefore they generate a good turnover for the, for the, the, the broadcasters. I think the question sometimes in my mind is where they're getting their return on their sport investments because yeah,

MAX

It's some big numbers. Yeah, huge numbers.

MATTHEW

And the numbers that are going into sport are not going into the broader sector.

MAX

And as a guy with scripted content, I'm still not happy yet in this whole reality TV and sport conversation.

MATTHEW

The only places for scripted have been really now the streaming service, the ABC and SBS. And SBS doesn’t have very much resource. and the regulatory the small ish regulations on traditional media including Foxtel.

00:18:52:05

MAX

I feel like that's a nice segway back to streamers because again my perception of industry at the moment and feedback from even well-established production companies that look over give me some constructive feedback on all three television shows.

MATTHEW

That you’re doing?

MAX

Yeah, the emails start with, well, the conversation start with. “As you know, at the moment, the streamers aren't commissioning because of this impending legislation in relation to a minimum quota for Australian content.”

So when you're fighting for a slice of the pie and that pie is dramatically reduced, it's certainly it's quite disconcerting and certainly it's another roadblock and I guess it feels like everyone's kind of holding their breath whether they're emerging or they've got runs on the board waiting for this legislation to drop.

MATTHEW

 Yeah, and if you were talking to some of the more established production companies, part of their challenge your show, for example, might not be a streaming show, might be an ABC show, but those businesses are in this sort of hold their breath tighten their belt moment where they've possibly been in development for a long time with some of the streamers, but they’ve not been given the green light which means they’ve incurred a lot of costs. You know, development kind of crisis reduction,

MAX

It's not cheap and the payoff is a long way away

MATTHEW

So they're not releasing sort of money and resources, which means that for people wanting to partner with them, they haven't really got that… in that sort of you know, contract and sort of just keep things sort of humming So they can't really spend a lot of time and maybe energy thinking about, commissions right at the moment.

So yes, because they're sort of trying to get through the, there was a sort of a survive until 25 motto that was going on in America excuse me, which is, you know, I think a worse state than in Australia in terms of production industry by all accounts of people who have been traveling but you know that's a mantra and of course it doesn't help but if people to kind of go what do we do in the meantime.

But then look and there are commissioning that's still happening. I think it was, you know it's talked about it at Screen Forever, that there is still opportunities in feature films for people as well. So we we're talking a little bit particularly about scripted or you know maybe factual series on streaming or television. But I think that emerging producers can still make a mark in short films, in a production of maybe a lower budget type of film and not have to go through the same gatekeepers there. There are gate keepers there, of course there are distribution and, and other things for feature films, but they can sometimes be if you're looking to explore new talent. A more relaxed, freer way to do that. And you can get support for particularly, if you’ve got emerging talent that people want to see showcased in different ways.

MAX

Okay. So it's not so much the landscape's change, it's just that the taps turned off quite a decent amount when it comes to streamers commissioning just about anything in Australia,

MATTHEW

Streamers, I was trying to think was it 2017 or… when Netflix launched in Australia. Maybe it was 2017, im going to have to review that. But you know, when came and the others came it was in the market,  the same as what you were talking about internationally, they were looking to land subscribers and compete with each other.

So the good thing about all this framework is that Australians do really enjoy Australian content. They want it to be well made, they want it to be comparable in production values and, and storytelling as the American, United Kingdom and projects particularly, but increasingly global projects from other territories that we get access to. but you know, the way that those businesses were entering this market was right, well we need to dial up Australian content because that's going to give us access to audiences who love this stuff. Yeah, we're going to be a market and yeah, and yes, it's also a way to tell the government that we're doing this, you know, and we're playing fair. Yeah, there's a degree of, of, of investment, you know, has slowed down from the 12 months that was there for a few years.

And now we have job of trying to get that ready. The deadline for it was the 1^st of July.

MAX

Yeah. There was a lot of people sort of holding their breath through the entire month of June.

MATTHEW

Hasn’t happened yet.

MAX

And I think parliament in town, they're not in Canberra at the moment and they're not sitting at the moment.

MATTHEW

They’re in their winter recess so there’s a few weeks where nothing is going to get done.  So

there's ongoing conversations with the Minister about these and the timing. and you know, there is a sort of a narrowing window before the next election. I think, you know, who knows when it will be it could be this year or its probably more likely it could even be the start of next year. But you know governments, what we're talking about is not a straight forward thing. I said, I say to people that it's very, very hard but it is the easiest part of what you can do in terms of talking to the government is asking for money because money is still a debate about resources and people are going to be fighting internally in governments, you know to work out how to allocate resource in some cases.

MAX

Politicians doing politician things.

MATTHEW

Yeah, but all of that is easy compared to asking for new regulation and new regulation  always comes with layers upon layers upon layers or process and other things. But in our case, what we are asking for is the regulation of the global, very large. In fact, the largest businesses on the planet in some certain ways. Amazon, Netflix, we are asking, our government to take on global regulation and we also ask them to take on the regulation of, commercial service businesses that are here in this market that happen to also own all of the newspapers. Ie Nine, and News Corp.  So you can see why it's also taken a long time for government to do this because it takes a that level of bravery.

00:25:10:16

MAX

Some chunky stake holders.

MATTHEW

Yes, that’s a great way to describe it. People with a bit of gristle. The way they've done this is to be as probably as resilient and persistent as a emerging producer needs to be in going in constantly and asking for the same sort of things and being unflappable about what is needed and, and how to get from A to B and not giving up.

MAX

Best of luck. Godspeed, because I think, because I think at one stage you were quoted in the media, you know, talking about numbers like 20% and streamers were talking about numbers like 2%. So do we know a number or it's…

MATTHEW

No we don’t know a number and there's still a model decision. Dial it back in terms of what we, we want a system that is secured. I think is the best way to describe it given how hard it is to get this sort of reform done. Yeah, and it's robust enough for people not to sort of feel like it's dodgy or being rorted by the businesses involved in it, and its got a capacity to move as the industry moves so we want to be sort of framework…

MAX

Sustainable.

MATTHEW

Sustainable and then in terms of the quantum, we've look to other territories that have best practice as to how much they're asking of their, you know, local international streamers to contribute. So we’ve kind of gone for metrics and a model similar to Australia ah to other countries that have regulated already, they include France and Germany and Italy and soon to be Canada

00:26:45:11

MAX

Because there was a joint statement issued Spain, France, Italy, Portugal, Germany, Ireland, New Zealand and Canada.

MATTHEW

Someone’s done their research.

MAX

I have, because I mean obviously I'm invested, but also in many ways in the success of this, but also you know, building on that point because it sounds like some of those markets have achieved. Delivered.

00:27:08:16

MATTHEW

Yeah, some of them have already gotten there. Europe has always been quite progressive at the moment there's a, a list of reforms on tech and privacy and AI and data handling and all these sort of layers upon layers that were done in or started to be done in 2017 in Europe and Australia. Look, we, we haven't had a set of,  I suppose we had a Conservative government for a while for almost ten years, but which isn't naturally at the forefront of regulatory reform.

And then, you know, there's a bit of catch up with the new government going to do, but then there's also the forces against reform that, you know, any government is going to have to deal with. So but to your point, yes, Europe’s had it since 2017, the benefit of, what their framework is, is an installation of an overall scheme in which individual countries need to implement.

And France was quick to implement these sort of actually 25.5%, it's got different layers to it and there's parts of it that are equivalent to what we're asking for overall. But you know, overall you’d say that’s it’s a system, Germany's just announced its levels. It wants to be about 20% might be a bit lower. Italy's had a few years. Canada has announced the stage one piece of its regulation, which is a 5% revenue based quota, which is not about making Canadian content, but more about just helping the system to operate and the  Canadian quota coming later. So, you know, there's different pieces that will be provided by different countries. the first wave in… Europe is a very big block, to deal and go toe to toe with some of those big companies. So, you know, they were probably the first leader maybe before some of these businesses were so established in government relations.

MAX

Yeah, that's handy.

MATTHEW

Yes. Yeah. So they went hard and fast and individual countries have now as they come online a bit lower. You know some of the rhetoric from the streamers is you know, you know Croatia is at 1%. Sometimes those Individual countries have had a lot of resistance from the streamers in terms of getting to a point of support.

MAX

The position of powers a lot less and they might just say, look, any deal is better than none at the moment. Let's get a foot in the door.

MATTHEW

Yeah. And so, you know, that's what Australia's got to figure out, where it's going to eventually land. We’ve put the case forward, so it's up to the government to make a determination. But yeah, I mean, Australia… the fortunate part of Australia's system is it's not a…. these aren't new the concept of new measure of interventions in the  market is not new. This has been around since the sixties and seventies. So there's examples in Eruope where theyve treaded a little softer because, you know, it hasn't been a history of regulation or IP development or businesses like yours being supported through that system and there's no not necessarily the same capability to develop their own work.

So they've gone in a bit softer, partly for that reason or partly because they've been stared down as a small territory just gone yeah we’re going to leave. Now that’s a rhetoric that happens in this territory by some of those bigger businesses which to me like zero sense and stuff like that because they're making a lot of revenue in this market and there may be brinkmanship and theatrics around that, as has happened with the media bargaining code and, you know, different levels.

But there is a I think that the one it's interesting is a mixture of behaviours from the streamers. Some of them are a much more global citizen thinking and behind the scenes, very quietly talking to us all the time and government saying we don’t really mind . We’d just, like, some flexibility here and there.

MAX

We need to invest anyway, we want to, and we are.

MATHEW

Yeah. We want to be seen as responsible corporate citizens, we want to be seen  like that with the industry. And we are happy to partner in different ways. And you can sort of get a sense of the businesses that show up different times sponsor things  get involved in stuff and then there's others that have made a, you know, mandate maybe from others that their… and I'm not blaming individuals on the ground here, but it's a global edict maybe to resist at all costs. Or an exercise in brinkmanship that they’re trying to pay. And the problem, I think, for them and they get frustrated as well. They get swept up into the same sort of band maybe as their worst case or their representative groups that are kind of fighting really hard, you know.

MAX

We don't really want other people telling us how to run our business and that sort of stuff.

MATTHEW

And that’s the sort of overall message and some of them don't really mind because they can see that the measures are going to be beneficial for their overall business anyway in this strategy. Our sector is, a common resource. I think, we are like a garden that you've got to have many people tilling the soil, planting stuff, you know, watering, fertilizing, bringing to life lots of projects. And it can't be that you sort of can try to isolate and just, we just going to do that little thing here,  you got to kind of look after the whole common resource of people and business and care and support and all that sort of thing.

So people can lean into that and companies in their behaviours can lean into it and others cannot. I think what the government's role is, is to not let that be dependent on the individual strategy for one year it's trying to go well, we need a healthy garden overall. We're going to set a framework to help the garden work. Right.

Some of you don’t mind because you're turning up so plant your soil and plants. Some of you are kind of taking the piss because you never turning up. And you probably under the cover of darkness maybe grabbing all the plants and running off. So we're going to sort of manage this by bringing it all together in some sort of hopefully fair way. You know, so it depends on the on the outcome of where the government's scheme is.

And, and also just, you know, we don't…. the challenge for for us as a, group externally to the businesses. We don't know what their, numbers are they don't reveal their numbers they dont tell us well publicly what their earnings are, what the expenditure levels are. So we're making assessments in terms of what we should position the industry as based on what other territories have done rather than understanding actually what individual businesses are doing because they haven’t told us that.

We’ll see if its going to be one of those things that comes out, I think hopefully soon.

MAX

Everyone's waiting

MATTHEW

The proof will be in the pudding.

MAX

I think yeah whether it's a established producer with, with several credits a production company or me you know just trying to get the first credit. It's certainly I think the timing too of of this conversation at this stage with the end of the streaming wars is just meant that you know there’s a lot less happening. And I feel like that vibe is, you know, people are commissioning less and when they are commissioning, the budgets are less or they're asking more for the dollar.

MATTHEW

Yeah. Yes. That's, that's possibly well true because until the regulation comes in and there's an absolute spend, then they'll be meeting that spend and they probably won't be as know, one hopes they might be a little more relaxed about the level they have to hit in terms of the budget.

The other thing I'd say is that I think I've observed and spoken to our French counterparts a couple of times and about this, and they have had concerns that the measures in different territories can result in, you know, just four commissions or two commissions with a lot of money, which kind of cuts out many projects, which equally valuable for the services.

But it might be that their resourcing and person power can't necessarily meet with lots of commissions. So they maybe aggregate or think big is best.

MAX

Right. Few fewer. Bigger.

MATTHEW

Which can cut out a lot of opportunities for people who have smaller ideas. Or maybe they're never going to be given, you know, the $30, $40 million commission on the first hit. So my encouragement in whatever form that happens is to keep a watching brief around that.

And if it ends up being that, you know, essentially there are three or four businesses or people or directors or writers that are you know, that getting all this work, but a huge crew. Yes you want the show to be competitive and have high production values. But I just think we've got to manage and those businesses need to be in there gardening and say well we probably need to have part of this allocation to smaller projects to just give people a bit of a break here and do the sort of thing that, you know, you’d hope that our National broadcasters are continuing to do.

MAX

I get that because the objective is still a, you know, sustainable Australian industry with Australian stories. So I get that and that makes sense.

MATTHEW

And you've got to give… you have to test people, you've got to have some allocation or capacity to go well we don't, we want to let this see what it could be and this individual or this combination of people deliver this result. If it doesn't entirely work okay no one is going to be hung and drawn and quartered over it. But if it does work, it's got a capacity to deliver. And I think that's that's hard for a subscription service sometimes. But it's I know I just, I look at some of the moves that the streamers have made over the last couple of years and some of that stuff you said I gave you all that was rushed, it was put into production too quick. That's a lot of money on that show. There could have been that there were ten smaller projects made.

You could have had a better shot at something that really stuck with audiences because you can see it not being commissioned in season two. Now we’re looking through the benefit of hindsight and crystal ball gazing.

MAX

Yeah, of course. It's easy then, isn't it?

MATTHEW

We are happy. Yeah. I’m happy to be a couch critic.

MAX

We could tell them exactly where they went wrong.

MATTHEW

And we know that that job is super hard so I’m not going to…. But it’s a shame you sort of look at it and go oh, and maybe it's about discipline or a mandate internally to kind of go, you know, we've got to think about this whole system and the pipelines of different participants. And again, some of the businesses do this. They are thinking about it already. They might not talk about it openly, but they're investing in different ways you know, give them, you know, full credit when I observe something, you know that's quite strategic. And then others are just like, we just, you know, we don't either have that level of sophistication yet. Regulation should also bring, I think, responsibility formally into the market from some of the businesses who’ve gotta invest in the people to be the commissioners and handling of the work because it's a, it's a game of tennis and you’ve gotta have someone who can hit a ball back to the industry after you know, if those people aren't… we have an award each year that I really like for our SPA awards which is the Commissioner of the year because it's a way of giving Producing community and the full production community , a way of acknowledging that work that someones doing on the other side of this fence and its significantly big you know hats off to it.

MAX

The carrot… and the stick is is helping the government with the legislation and the carrot is rewarding those great behaviors with an award.

MATTHEW

Well, I don't know if that's a little too simplistic of that, but yes, it is. I think it's just important for us to, you know, and, just to signal that we do see the good work that’s going on the other side, because it's not people can kind of go just thinking about their own world. And I think the best strategies, again for emerging producers and any producers is really is to put yourself in the shoes of the people you're talking to all the time.

MAX

And doing that, that's great advice because, I mean, you know, you've got to understand the business you're in. I think the more you do that, the more power you might have in a position where you don't always have a lot of power as an emerging voice. And to that point, I guess, you know, looking at the lay of the land now, I feel risk averse is certainly where commissioners are. And even in looking at putting stuff into development, when knowing that, you know, they might have 13 projects in development with three that actually make it to screen very, you know, looking for a lot of similar stuff in terms of, no sci fi, no period pieces because it's too expensive. Horror's too risky we're falling back to the comfortable stuff like more procedurals, more, you know, dead body in the small town type stuff.

MATTHEW

Now you've maybe have more at the coalface conversations.

MAX

That whole sentence was triggering.

MATTHEW

So yeah, but yeah, and I don't, I don't know that I've got a, I feel like that's…

MAX

It could be unique to everyone's journey whether your factual or film yeah ok.

00:39:32:02

MATTHEW

And it sort of depends on the last conversation and with who you have it. It changes on a dime sometimes because people, and I think that you said I would encourage people to go to as many kind of commission conversations as they can have. But there's a… you notice that some of the businesses maybe they either don't know what they really need or they can't really don’t want to say it to you directly they can kind of talk in generic terms about commissioning and there are other people that are very clear, they can go, you know need four shows this year and they might not do this as publicly as that this is the problem. They’ll go we are trying to find something for a male demographic. This TV, this genre of 6 to 8 episodes. And it needs to work for this sort of audience because we're finding that we haven't got anything that's really kicking a goal for that demographic. And we’re noticing it in the viewing data or whatever it is.

So they’re the conversations you’re probable having. It doesn't help you if your slate is all sort of, you know, the other thing, but it can allow you to understand and maybe come with a diverse sort of set of thinking about either adapting what you have or kind of a mixed model about what it is you can offer people and spinning the conversation, because it's often those stories about, well, I came with this idea, and then someone just as you were leaving, said, What else have you got? And you haven't even thought you'd pull it out of your pocket. You've got this thing competition about Lego what do you reckon, you know. Yeah it would be  really great to do a product spinning. And so, you know, people can find that there's something that you don't realize that they know about, right that you, y’know so it’s a hard one, but yes, the, the, those conversations, I'm not.. the risk averse piece feels like it's been something I've heard ever since I've been to the industry many years ago. I don’t feel its  changed actually. And things like horror seem to kind of go through a cycle of everyone seems to in certain spaces but not in other spaces. I

It seems to change a lot in based on who you last talked to.

MAX

That's fair enough.

MATTHEW

 There's an element of stick to your knitting if you know what you're doing with a particular genre or if you don't know, you're kind of having a bit of a go at a few things. And sometimes the, the exact format that they don't know that they want necessarily might spark them up because of who's attached to it or some sort of twist within it or an idea or a concept that is absolutely on message. It might be, you know, it might be things are conversations with people. They're not usually a single sort of heres what I've got do you want a sort of yes or a no. It's the people that the commissioners want to work with will sort of lead the witness.

The game for emerging producer or any producers is to be in a situation where theres a trusted sort of frame where could that be adapted in that way

MAX

Well I think it can be ‘pitch on demand’ that you run is a great way where they, where the three or four commissioners actually say he's the brief, he's what we want is what we're looking for right now. Whether you've got some in your pocket then and there ready to go to pitch or you're working towards something that can sort of help.

MATT

Yeah, that's a, that's a good but we really like that that program and people have gotten out of it. It's a scheme in which, basically it's usually streamers, giving people an overview of what they're after and then people go away and find what they can pitch to them and then they submit pitches and then they will select the pitches of people to continue to talk to.

The problem for, you know commissioners is, there is only so many hours in the day thousand so. So they're trying to filter their time in ways that is the most productive. But from a producing level you really need to kind of understand where the goalposts are. You know you're off target and you've got to have something to direct your energy and your thinking around.

So that's where that becomes particularly valuable. And it's done in a sort of a safe sort of, you know, offline ish space in which it's not just generic sort of, you know, ‘we are after general great ideas… true Australian story’. They'll be more precise, usually be more precise.

MAX

No its great. I found success in that in terms of going through the process to have a really constructive conversation with Foxtel and an ongoing dialogue

MATTHEW

Oh yeah, good.

00:44:23:09

MAX

At some stage in all three and although it was a pass, you know as a learning experience, you know, it was great to get even further understanding of how that development process works from the perspective of a commissioner like Foxtel, for example.

MATTHEW

I like the way you say that because acknowledging there was a pass is not a failure piece. It's sort of like you cannot really expect it to be… like one hears stories of Hollywood where it was the  first idea and then they came and made it and it was da da da….

Its just sort of this unrealistic sort of thing that you can step into the field without any training, without any knowledge and all of a sudden get the gold medal in the 100 metre race. You know these things are about years on the ground and time with people I like the way you frame it because you've got to keep the glass half full approach to it… I learnt some stuff out of that.

00:45:12:21

MAZX

Yeah. I think coming from a corporate background you're used to presenting in front of a group of people and having a plan picked apart and then put back together again. It just makes a better plan. And I think having that consistent, constructive dialog with people who are actually making the decisions, on a number of occasions I've gone back and reshaped my pitch document or, you know, looked at the story again a bit harder and made a few changes that I feel have made it better…. apart from just the process itself, I'm learning more as a producer how it works. So, yeah, so it's, it's a great point on understanding what they want and, and different ways to go about doing that.

MATTHEW

We;; they wouldn’t be doing that with you unless they saw a pathway with either the relationship and the security of that discussion and an opportunity for collaboration in the future. So that's credit on you.

MAX

I take it as a win.

MATTHEW

Yeah, you should absolutely. Nice guys do come first. No its true!.

MAX

Well, I mean, if they are going to give you a lot of money, but also it's a journey, you know, they got to work with you and know that A you're going to deliver product but also, you know, we're going to have to work with this creative you know, what's that going to be like.

MATTHEW

You're right. I mean, there is three things to think about, one of them is nice people are important in the industry. The nicest people are the people that have been around some of the longest because people want to work with nice people. Then there's a delivery piece where someone can trust that you will break down the wall and get the thing done and not come to them with ‘uh oh’ moments because that's part of the job of the producer and it's the scary piece, it's kind of like taking on the responsibility of the production and really only going with major problems to them. And they want people who will just do it, who will be able to figure out how to navigate

MAX

Be a bit more resilient and look at solving the problems rather than… or if they do have to go to them with a problem they've got three solutions to choose from, you know?

MATTHEW

Yeah, and not all of them need to be ‘we have to put in more money’.

MAX

I was about to say yeah, not all of them are expensive. Producer mindset.

MATTHEW

You know a nice rapport and  capacity to deliver is just everything. If you look around who's been in the industry in the way that they’ve operated for a long time, you'll find that that is a common set of traits that people have got.

00:47:38:05

MAX

I think just one last thing to touch on ..IP and the, the risk of IP drain from Australia. I know that…

MATTHEW

Yeah that’s big for us.

MAX

Why is it big for you guys at moment?

MATTHEW

When people are creating something but the product that theyre creating, and yes, this something that you can see on screens but the intangible sort of piece that's being built is IP, you know, the intellectual property of the works and a producer has to kind of scour over walls, you know, climb through whatever to get that bit of IP.

MAX

Negotiate chain of title.

MATTHEW

You know, all its work is, this sort of amorphous thing is everything from the rights to Bluey and the capacity to control or come up with spinoffs or merchandizing or additional series or stage musicals or whatever it is.

The intellectual property is the really core part of the picture. Now, you know, in a in a normal world that is a combined asset of the production company and possibly creators and others, you know, that are part of the team of that work, depending on how ironed out. But that is the the really valuable piece that keeps everyone going. It is the basis by which the work is reworked or re licensed or you know, it enables people to sink money into a long term plan for their businesses and security of employment for a lot of people around them. So without that, it also strengthens and builds the industry so that you've got a better developed concept for the next time you going to bat for something.

So without that, you end up being very rootless as a sector. Your kind of, grafting and moving onto other people's IP. Which if we let it be unchecked, increasingly would just be American intellectual property that is being produced into Australia. We love working with international people. They've got resources and skills in many things, but that is both a cultural problem, but also a business problem where your people will work for the dollar and not have anything to show for it as an ongoing piece of resource that can then build a sector. There is a difference an Uber business and an Uber driver and we need Uber businesses, of course we want the drivers but we sort of need the people who are coming up with the concepts and grounding them into Australia. The challenge in our market is that it's the same as the grocery industry you've got a handful of huge businesses that are designed to sort of pillage, fishing trawl everything the out of a contract…

MAX

Leverage their position of power and threaten to copy your product themselves.

MATTHEW

It's the job of people business affairs people at those businesses to do that. Ok here is our deal, here are our terms, sign on the dotted line or you don't get to pay and play, you know we're not going commission your work. But if you’re, you know haven't had a commission often new producers will fall into a trap of having given everything away. Now sometimes it's a calculated decision in order to get something made.

MAX

First credit, get it done.

MATTHEW

They will do that. There is an increasing need for a framework or, support pieces around either the money that goes into the sector or the way that the regulation works so the people have got some leverage to fight that otherwise we don't have any resources.

MAX

But what could that look like. How would you be able to…

MATTHEW

So in other territories you have a system by which you never give away secondary rights as part of that regulated scheme they’ve  got, you cant give away merchandising rights to the commissioner and the broadcast rights revert back to, the production company after three to five years.

MAX

For a period of time.

MATTHEW

The asset always remains in the belly of the production business that’s been commissioned. Now it's not for every dollar that's commissioned. But they say I think it's two thirds of the money that's been done through that scheme and investment scheme has to be done that way. We go that's a pretty good model. In Australia traditionally we've had two mechanisms that have assisted producers to hold their rights.

One of them is when Screen Australia's investing equity they insist the terms be more reasonable for the producer. That means the producer holds intellectual property when Screen Australia’s at the table. When it's a, a grant based under $500,000, that doesn't exist as a form, but it can mean that even if Screen Australia’s at  the table they're watching and saying we're not going to put that in if you screw people. That helps the producer.

MAX

You don't have to give everything away. Yeah.

MATTHEW

I’d love to be able to give you my first born and second born but these people in government they don't want to do it. but it's a great way to protect the business.

MAX

Give you a bit more position of power in that negotiation.

00:52:50:05

MATTHEW

The second thing that went the way of the dodo was the regulation of commercial free to air broadcasters up until 2021 when it got changed. It had a scheme by which you got more points and an earlier acquittal, when you were working with production companies, but paying a certain high license fee and a license fee is valuable because a licence fee is valuable because its not ownership of the content, it’s a resource given to the business for the use of the works. You know, primary use of the works. so you know, a high license fee mandated in other schemes it gives the production business the ongoing and greater control of the product. So that's one way to do it so you can tie it to offsets or other things, but you know, I don't know where we're at with it.

It's pretty critical that this gets done in some way and businesses are on notice that they should be fighting against this and that streamers are on notice that people are watching their behaviours. So, you know, all of this is a probably an ongoing conversation. One of the things that's frustrating in this sort of job, in this industry is that the work's never done.

There is always another horizon, one thing is solved and another thing pops out the side, or that things get sort of half solved and you’ve got to keep going at them for a long time. So it's a bit like producing maybe.

MAX

Yeah.

MATTHEW

You know an ongoing challenge for people to get things sorted.

MAX

Yeah that's, that's great. Well look, thank you very much. You've touched on some great insights and I really feel like I'm walking away with, with an even greater understanding of what the market looks like today and, and what's coming, which is great.

So, Matthew Deaner, thank you very much for your time. I really appreciate it.

MATTHEW

Thanks for having me.

MAX

You've been listening to Two Unemployed Actors, I’m Max Belmonte and make sure you download and follow. Thank you